I love Israel and have flown there some 5 times over the past decade, but some things always make it a pain. Renting a car is always a hassle. Every time I’ve gone there has either been a charge for an imaginary new scratch on the car or there has been a discrepancy between the quoted price and the final bill.
The Kashrus situation in Israel is even more annoying though. I try to keep a high standard of kashrus at home, from Cholov Yisroel, Pas Yisroel, Chassidisher Shchita meat, etc. When I eat out it’s fairly simple to find restaurants that have widely acceptable hechshers.
At the end of the day it doesn’t always work out. I likely ate non-kosher Chinese food as a 10 year old kid in Cleveland when Peking was busted serving treif food and was forced to close their doors. It’s been more than 23 years since that incident and despite the massive Orthodox population boom in Cleveland, nobody has attempted to open another kosher standalone chinese restaurant here.
As “sky121” posted on DDF, “When you get to heaven after 120 years and they ask you if you ate kosher, you’ll have no problem saying that you’re not sure, but you definitely paid for kosher!”
It gets hairier in other countries, but it’s not too hard to find the right balance between what is or isn’t acceptable for my personal standards. In Paris I avoid meat restaurants that are under the local Beth Din, but there are other good options there. In Rome I wasn’t comfortable that most of the meat restaurants serve non-glatt food, but still managed to find one that did not. Etc.
In Israel I find things a lot more difficult. There are hundreds of hechshers and the same one that one person will say is good, the next person will say is not acceptable. That means I have to do a ton of research with every trip and figure out what the right balance is based on what I’ll eat in the US. And of course each time there’s something new, so if the term mehadrin wasn’t hard enough to understand before for each city in Israel that interprets it differently, now there are terms like mehuderet to learn for a restaurant like Crave, which was opened and managed by a partner who also owns Teaneck’s Nobo.
Hotels in Israel have higher standards to keep than regular Rabanut restaurants, but many of them can’t qualify for mehadrin hechshers due to various factors including Jews in the hotel working on Shabbos, having a separate catering kitchen in the basement for affairs that might not use mehadrin meat, and relying on Bishul Yisroel with a fire started by a Jew, which is acceptable for Ashkenazim but not for Sephardim.
The Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem was opened by the Reichman family of Toronto in 2014. I did research into the hotel before each stay with the mashgichim and other Rabbis and was comfortable enough to eat there based on the exclusively glatt and cholov yisroel food served there. It goes without saying that everyone should do their own research and not rely on me. It was nice that a frum family owned the hotel, but given that Cleveland’s Peking was also owned from a frum Jew when he fed the community non-kosher food I always try to do my own up-to-date research.
The hotel was recently sold and it seems that the Reichman family felt the need to advertise and let people know that they were no longer overseeing the kashrus at the hotel. As the hotel only has a Rabanut hechsher, I suppose some people who might not eat Rabanut would rely on the Reichman’s to uphold higher standards. This email was sent out from by Ruth Weiss of AdLib Unlimited on 6/13:
Today, Ruth Weiss of AdLib Unlimited sent out another email, which appears to be an ad masquerading as an interview, touting the bona-fides of the hotel’s head mashgiach:
I do wish the Waldorf would find a way to get a higher level hechsher on the hotel, but given that their predominantly frum clientele eats there anyway, they likely don’t feel any pressure to make that happen.
I reached out to AdLib for comment earlier today, but did not receive a response as of yet.
What do you make of kashrus in Israel and the Waldorf’s email campaign?
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125 Comments On "On Kashrus In Israel And Today’s Interesting Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem Email Ad Campaign"
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You will have an easier time settling the Arab Israeli crisis in the mid east
LOL
The one segment of this topic that I did not see addressed at all here, is Terumos and Maasros.
Every hechsher has their own mahalach, and I have heard a rumor that certain hashgachos will simply rely on the business owners’ say-so that terumos and maasros were taken.
Dan, do you drink soder before mincher and wait 6 hours to eat pizzer after eating chassidisher shechiter?
I see what you are doing but you are incorrect for making fun of his use of chasdidisher. It can be chassidishe or chasidisher. It’s a legit word
Your incredible focus on materialism makes your kvetching about kashrus ring hollow
Same reason Chabad eats mezonos before davening. We eat to daven better, not daven to eat better 🙂
did you ever wonder why no Tanna, Amora, Gaon or Rishon ever suggested that? Does that apply on Yom Kipper? 🙂
on this thread, i saw your mesader kiddushin eating at david citadel. he told me the same as the star K will tell you – in Israel, you must know who the mashgiach is at the hotel and how he operates.
I took a trip to Cleveland when I was six years old. We ate at Peking. I only remember because they were busted a short while later.
Ouch.
Mehuderet is great because it balances the need for glatt with meat slaughtered outside Yerushalayim
Ask 10 Jews, get 20 opinions on that.
One of the many confusing aspects of Israeli kashrus is that you can have a single company that has their products with various hashgachos. I remember in my earlier days there, someone once looked at me with glaring eyes, “you’re eating that?!” It only dawned upon me then that each product has to be checked separately. This is a problem that exists not only over there but also largely in the US as soon many Israeli products are now imported here. This post should perhaps serve as some kind of PSA to alert people that we’re “not safe with products that have Hebrew letters”!
Very interesting. I had thought the acceptability of this particular hotel was based on this particular mashgiach, but I guess the ownership plays a big role also.
Besides the general issues with kashrus in Israel mentioned above, I also bemoan the lack good lists of mehadrin restaurants. There are a number of (even not ad-supported) websites here, and it’s easy to search for restaurants online and check their hechsher on their website and the vaad’s website. In Israel, the online restaurant lists are hopelessly incomplete, the hechsherim frequently don’t maintain websites, and the restaurants’ websites usually don’t say anything beyond “mehadrin” (even when they mean “mehuderet.”
Aside from a lack of good lists of mehadrin restaurants, there’s also a lack of good mehadrin restaurants…
I come to your website to get good deals and here I have to read about all your Chinese religious stuff!
Anyways, a good yom tov to all those who b’shem yisroel yechuneh
(Ask Dan if you don’t know what that means)
Who is forcing you to read this???!
I think you should helpothrsbyhlpingurslf and not reading this post so you don’t make such weird comments next time…
Unfortunately, I think you pretty much summed it up at the end. The majority of people staying there simply don’t care enough to demand such a strict standard. As long as they can say that the venue has a hechsher, they’ll still eat there. If there’s no major demand for higher standard, Waldorf will not supply one.
Wow, this must be the most taboo subject you ever blogged about!
Re. Above interview, the guy had me, until he killed it by saying he has shchita from badatz Yerushalayim. Many eat their dairy, but most of the frum crowd don’t touch their meat.
Re. The general topic, there’s no hope.
Exactly!!!
Lets not forget after 120 you will be asked you if you were honest in business
That’s a very nice point your bringing out, but you know that your going to be asked if you kept all 613 mitzvos and made zman Krias shimah every day and never spoke loshon hora…what does being honest in bussiness have to do with a T in China here?
Why not ask if you make brachos bi’kavana?
I must say I am all thrilled by this post, finally there is a strong voice speaking out about Kashrut !!! People simply don’t think nor care, so sad.
I always looked at you as a good Jew, now I look at you as an extraordinary Jew!!!
Its a subject that we are so cheaply shortchanged.
Dan Kol Hakovad!!!
I don’t really believe in good or extraordinary Jews. We all have the same Nefesh Elokis.
Just trying to do what’s right as I best understand it. But thanks 🙂
This is an absolutely beautiful and authentic reply. Dan is ALWAYS the man!
I live in Yerushalayim, and Barych Hashem have the opportunity to ask kasharut questions to a very knowledgeable gadol. I would recommend that one “make for himself a rav” and then just ask the rav where you can eat. It’s no more complicated than in the US. Just different. My rav says “yes” to machpud, “no” to mehuderet, so that’s what I eat. The OU posts dozens of mistakes they make every month. If your rav says you can eat OU, then it’s OK (yes pun intended). Ask your rav, or find a rav you respect in Israel, and ask them. I have never heard the term “asay l’cha blog”.
This is nonsense.
Anyone in the USA can lookup respected hachgochas from the CRC.
You live in Israel and have a personal rav that knows the situation at hand. Most people in the US don’t have a Rov that knows whether the rabanut mehadrin in each city is good or not for dairy and/or for meat…
The OU makes dozens of mistakes? No idea what you’re talking about. Do you mean companies that use their symbol without authorization.
Fact is that any of the mehudar hechsherim in EY will be better than their counterparts in the USA, who will in turn be better than their counterparts in Europe.
The norm for what a hechsher can demand of its establishment is a cultural thing. And the culture in EY allows much more control than America. Europe scrapes the bottom of the barrel, in general.
The fact that people in EY take the luxury of choosing to eat only some of their mehadrin hechsherim is nice, but as an American (who worked in the thick of the kashrus industry and is very familiar with the behind the scenes of multiple hechsherim) who is a regular at American “mehadrin” establishments, I don’t see any logic in choosing only some Israeli mehadrin and not others.
And, by the way, BDTZ meat follows the same rules, compared to USA glatt. Unless you are makpid to only eat from a small shechita like Pelah, if you are American, you can safely eat Badatz without compromise.
Most Americans don’t have a clue how a shchita like rabanut mehadrin jerusalem compares to mainsteam US shchita.
Or how mehuderet compares to a mainsteam US hashgocha.
Or if Beis Yosef is either amazing or completely unacceptable.
Frankly it’s all rather straightforward in the US and it’s simply not that way in Israel.
Perhaps the Israeli hechshers are on a higher level than the US, but it’s hard for someone like me to understand how to keep a similar level in Israel as I do in the US.
There are many complex issues that arise in Eretz Yisroel that don’t (or rarely) arise in America. Shemitah, Terumos Umaasros, more chametz sheavar issues, more Shabbos issues, etc.
“Hotels in Israel have higher standards to keep than regular Rabanut restaurants” That’s so convenient. You get the piety to say that you don’t eat Rabanut while you actually indeed eat Rabanut. It’s like those folks that say they don’t trust OU or OK, but Hisachdis is acceptable. Your tons of research seems more like tons of hearsay.
It’s not “eating Rabanut” as the hotel doesn’t use anything that is plain rabanut. And how many regular rabanut restaurant have full time mashgichim?
I can’t speak for people that don’t eat OK or OU though.
Rabanut is Rabanut. Nafcha is a handsomely paid beneficiary, spreading the gospel. He’s what they call feel good hashguche with a nice black kappel, with a balabatish coiffed beard…It must be a good hechsher, better than Rabanut, because he’s the expert, and he says so. All the frum, heimish oilim eat there so it must be acceptable. This is hardly research.
So if Rabanut is Rabanut, you would eat at a regular Rabanut restaurant before a place like the Waldorf that uses exclusively glatt megadrin meat and cholov yisroel dairy?
Cool story bro.
As for me, I asked several Rabonim and am comfortable in my position. I am not advising anything to anyone other than saying what I did personally.
Respect all the effort you all make to honor your beliefs. Saddens me a little to think that you travel to all of these places with amazing food and eat this drek but respect it all the same.
C’est la vie.
Surveys have shown that Orthodox Jews are among the happiest and most fulfilled people in the world, so something must be right with it.
I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t challenging, but I’m happy to take that on.
The hotel hires a Mashgiach and it’s up to him to decide on the guidelines. And if he make too many problems then they can always resolve it by getting a new one and there’s no Hashgacha or outcry to deal with. When doing research on the Waldorf 2 summers ago the Mashgiach said that the meat is Glatt but he can’t be tied down to any particular Hechsher, because if it’s on the menu then he has to try to get it. Meaning that even though the meat is Eida Chareidus one night, it can be Rabanut the next time, simply due to a shortage or convenience. The same goes for vegetables that one Hechsher pulls for infestation and another Hechsher that’s more lenient may allow it. Even the dairy products can be a problem because the milk that Tnuva uses without a Hechsher comes from Arab farms or were milked on Shabbos, so even if they tell you that it’s Tnuva and probably Kosher. It may end up being totally not Kosher. Bottom line is that you have to know alot of different background information about the Hechsherim used, in order to be able to ask the Mashgiach if you can eat there. For example even if he says that the meat is the best Hechsher possible, the vegetables that come with it may have lots of problems(Truma, Maaser, bugs, picked on Shabbos by Jewish farmers….)
From everything I researched and from the on site mashgichim I spoke to, this is a load of bunk. They do not use anything that’s not mehadrin.
There is no plain rabanut stuff, period.
Yes they only use mehadrin. But everyone has a different definition of what is Mehadrin, there are people that don’t eat their meat. It’s like saying someone was dressed Tzniusdig. It can range anywhere from Meah Shearim to Modern Othordox
That’s one of the points of this post, Israeli hashgocha is very confusing for American tourists and many will inadvertently have lower standards in Israel than they would back home.
That still doesn’t justify the hyperbole in your post about there being regular Rabanut or non-kosher food there.
I was referring to Rabanut Mehadrin which which a nice percent of Chareidim don’t eat their meat. And their vegetable checking is different on some vegetables then what some people are makpid.
As I said, your hyperbole detracted from whatever point you were trying to make.
Please realize that the standards they uphold for the hotel kitchens is not the same standards they use for the catering hall downstairs. The hotel only has a plain rabbanut and not mehadrin teudah for two main reasons. If you are sefaradi the hotel may actually not be considered kosher as they do not require that a Jew place the food on the fire. This becomes ‘bishul akum’ according to sefaradi custom. Ashkenazi custom only requires the fire be lit by a Jew.
The second reason is there is only one teudah for both the the hotel and the catering hall . The catering hall will serve any food the Baal simcha asks for and it does not have to be mehadrin.
I’ve had threads with the mashgiach himself and I have this all in writing . So realize what may be mehadrin to you is actually not even kosher to your neighbor.
That’s another reason everyone should do their own research. I’m researching as an Ashkenazi and I’m researching the hotel, not the catering hall.
Not sure if I hit post, so my apologies for any duplication. I wasn’t really directing my response to you Dan. It was to the original post in this thread where he said one night eida next night rabbanut…that could have very well been a response to a question about an affair and not about the hotel restaurants specifically.
Also absolutely no one should assume from anything written on this page that the hotel lives up to rabbanut yerushalayim mehadrin,because they don’t. At best it is equaivalent to RY mehuderet. For RY mehadrin it must be acceptable to ashkenazim and sefaradim alike.
Keep up the good work Dan.
Interesting, thanks!
If the requirements to obtaining a Rabanut Mehadrin Yehushalayim Teudah means that the establishment must be acceptable to BOTH Ashkenazim AND to Sephardim what is the reasons that some restaurants have BOTH RM Yeru AND a
Bet Yosef teudah?
Is this just so Sephardim can feel secure about eating at the establishment since it has a Sephardi hechsher?
(The same way some Ashkenzaim would feel if ere the opposite scenario)
PS
(I know the whole tumult about some Ashkenazim not eating Bet Yosef)
Seems like you answered your own question.
Correction.
I actually remember hearing the answer a while ago, and you -or someone else- actually mentioned one of them earlier. in the post
Which is the point of cooking by a jew. As Ashkenazim hold that all that needs to be done by the jew is start the fire. Spehardim have to actually cook the food (or something along those lines, exact details Im not sure of)
The second issue is a common cause for having both RM Yeru and Bet Yosef Teudahs in milchig restaurants.
That issue is the mixing of fish and dairy
Sephardim hold that fish and dairy can not be eaten together whereas Ashkenazim of course do not hold that .
So in many ‘Toast’ shops they will have both Teudahs due to the fact that many people like to add tuna to the cheese and vegetables in their toast sandwhich (Which is mixing fish and dairy which is of coure prohibited by Sephardim)
Another issue can arise due to many sandwiches going under the hot panini press which would then transfer to a Sephardi customer who would come and have his regular toast sandwhich made in the same panini press
So I am assuming that the Bet Yosef teudah would not allow that in this case.
Everyone should consult a Rav of course though for all matters.
Probably the same reason in the USA you may not always eat something that just has the OU on it. Yoshon/Pas Yisroel/Mashgiach Temidi (as in the case of canned tuna) are three things that come to mind. On Pesach there are plenty of other reasons you may not rely on a plain OU (18 minute, garlic, etc.) The OU sets a minimum standard and all the heimeshe hashgochos add another minhag and/or chumra as the case may be. I’m not in a position that I know to tell you what BY adds to RMJ or vice versa, but it’s likely some nuance, that if you really were makpid enough to know the difference, you probably would already know the answer.
What does garlic have to do with Pesach and the OU?
Just to mention one small difference in dairy Mehadrin. There are some hasgachos that require a live human Mahgiach for the duration of milking Cholov Yisroel while others rely on eyes/cameras. Some people hold that even though the eye may be better than a human it still cannot be considered Cholov Yisroel.
. “It was nice that a frum family owned the hotel, but given that Cleveland’s Peking was also owned from a frum Jew when he fed the community non-kosher food I always try to do my own up-to-date research.” lol like the reichmans would look to make a few extra bucks by compromising kashruth for the klal? what do you think they are small time mom and pop store owners that want to make 180k a year instead of 120k? sometimes your hilarious. and the reason why they dont have high standards is because they dont want the heimish people packing into the hotel and thats why when the reichanns owned it they never truly made it clear that it was 1000 percent okay to eat there,and please dan loz up with the kashruth if you feel guilty or feel empty when it comes to ruchnius GO LEARN!! you dont need to make up for it by showing extreme piety in kashruth matters
My point is that you don’t rely on owners of a business for kashrus, but I guess that was lost on you. Should we change the halacha so that if you worth at least $100MM that you no longer need hashgocha?
I was just there for Shavuos and the hotel was 99% occupied with heimish people, so clearly they failed if you are so sure that was their goal.
okay point taken your right please forgive the rough words
Dan,
I fail to understand why you publicized that you “likely ate non-kosher”. If someone “likely ate non-kosher”, that should haunt him all his life and it should be something that is very painful and embarrassing to him. If you were walking in the street and your pants fell down in public, would you mention that on your site too?
When you mention so cavalierly how you “likely ate non-kosher”, it makes it very difficult to believe that you actually take kashrus seriously.
In addition, when people read about other people’s transgressions, it makes it more “kal” in their eyes.
Please remove that sentence from this post.
I’ll do no such thing.
A. I was 10 years old.
B. I don’t know exactly when I ate there. I recall my 4th grade rebbi giving me a gift certificate for a free egg roll there (it was located right across the street from the Hebrew Academy of CLE) after I aced a test, though I have no idea if it was treif at that point in time.
C. The restaurant was under the top hechsher/Rabonim in Cleveland at the time.
D. Due to the points above, I don’t view this as a transgression, which would require knowledge or negligence, neither of which is possessed by a 10 year old. In any case, though it is unfortunate and is why I shared sky121’s line “When you get to heaven after 120 years and they ask you if you ate kosher, you’ll have no problem saying that you’re not sure, but you definitely paid for kosher!”
D. The point was to share a lesson for others to learn from and stress why I wouldn’t trust any business owner, even if frum, to serve kosher food without doing any research into it.
E. I couldn’t care less if you think I take kashrus seriously or not. That’s none of your business and it’s not the point of this post at all.
“Timtum haleiv” is real, whether you are 10 or 110, whether you had knowledge or not, whether you were negligent or not.
I read all your points above, and still do not see how mentioning that you “likely ate non-kosher” added anything to this post. All that that line shows, is a lightness for tarfus in your mind. If you would have the proper yidishe sensitivity to “TREIF”, you never would mention that you “likely ate non-kosher”, no matter how old, knowledge or negligence you were or weren’t.
Which point would any of your readers have missed had you skipped that pointless line? If you would have mentioned “Peking” without mentioning you eating there, all your points would have still remained.
Be a man, admit it was wrong to write that line and delete it!
The personal aspect has always been a part of this blog and it explains the lengths that I undertake today and why I would avoid eating meat from wonderful Italian restaurants in a city like Rome, despite the amazing experiences that most frum Jews write about there on the foodie groups.
I’m sorry that you fail to understand that, but I certainly won’t remove the personal lessons I share on my personal blog.
“The personal aspect has always been a part of this blog” so? If that line was wrong to write, then it is wrong, even if it follows your blog’s theme.
The “lengths that you undertake” would be equally understood if it wasn’t you that ate in Peking, rather your neighbor. A kosher food establishment with a reliable hashgocho serving treif, is enough of a reason to go to extra lengths, without mentioning that you ate there.
You seem to pick just one of the points I make, that you think you have a chance at defending, and then ignore the other points.
That did not go unnoticed.
In any event, at this point, it seems that you will not be coming clean, so I will not respond again on this.
I would however encourage you ask a spiritual mentor of your, if it is appropriate of you to mention that you “likely ate non-kosher” in a public forum or if that shows a zilzul in the choimer of eating treif.
Goodbye.
what are you hacking???? seriously?? You must be kidding!
Can’t believe you really mean it! Why can’t he give over a personal example to show why he wants to (and suggests others) to be more careful in the future!!
Yes if my pants fell down in the street when i was 10 years old because i refused to listen to my mother who told me that i need to keep my button closed or wear a belt etc, then YES i will use that as an example when telling others to be careful with wearing a belt/ buttoning the pants!
So I guess you no longer say Tehillim because Dovid Hamelech says V’chotosi Negdi Somid!
It’s actually a virtue, not a zilzul, for someone to learn from past mistakes, still admit they made a mistake, and learn from me, instead of re-writing history.
I personally feel that this is a beautiful way to atone for his sin if he did actually eat treif- best form of vidui. Hopefully this will open the eyes of some people and make them more aware that not everything that has a hechsher is kosher and it’ll make them more vigilant. Stop being so hating and try to concentrate on the good side of people. It’ll hopefully help you in your marriage (if you’re married if not it might help you find the right one), business etc.
Not to join the fracas, just l’toeles horabim. Orach chaim 343 end of ramo as to what to do. Yoreh deah 81:7 end of ramo as to why.
Link to posukim?
Wow the peanut gallery is out in full force
Dan. You are the man!
I love your love and don’t understand why it makes some people hate.
I wonder the same thing sometimes. Haters gonna hate I suppose and the easiest place to hate is online where it’s anonymous.
Dear dan maybe you can assist me in educating the frum people about kosher stamdards without naming or blaming any hechsher just so if you have an educated consumer then companies hotels etc will feelthe need to provide a level of kashrus evrey god fearing jew should want
I can assist with posts like these, my inbox is always open.
Lots of haters posting here 🙁
Just posting to say that I enjoyed reading your post and in no way came to the strange conclusions that others did. In fact, I was impressed that you are so thorough with your Kashrus. I always assumed you must not care about this too much and that’s how you are able to travel like you do. Nice to read that you stay true to your values. Inspiring even.
RT
Thanks for sharing the love 🙂
I second that! worded perfectly!
What’s the bottom line? I was there last week, spoke with the mashgiach, and ate there. I would go back. I’m not understanding the whole back and forth. Is it kosher or not?
Nothing has changed as of yet other than the ownership of the hotel.
I may be the returning guest he’s referring to
Here’s a question.
Why is it mehadrin not to heat food on Yom Tov?
Not cooking to order I understand since the orderee may not be Jewish, but to heat up food for the masses for a Yom tov seudah ??
Excuse my ignorance on this one.
Something is lost in translation there as they do heat Yom Tov food AFAIK.
From reading the article/ad it sure sounded like on yomtov they don’t heat food…. Other than what they put in the hotbox before yomtov.
Also, as a pet peeve I hate the reference to glat vegetables. I’ve heard of vegetarian liver, but lungs?
That pet peeve of yours is exactly what I noticed. It is just an indication for critical thinkers that the terms “mehadrin” “badatz” and “glatt” are really meaningless in today’s day and age, and are nothing more than marketing terms.
Since Israel does have laws banning Kashrus fraud, I think it’s high time that such law be expanded to ban the use of those terms. If one has certain standards for their hashgocho, let them list the specifics where anyone can research.
Not going to get into the kashrus hock but the email campaign seems smart. It’s less an ad masquerading as an interview as email marketing 101. Seems like a stipulation under the Reichman’s relinquishing ownership or at least a service to them was the clear message saying they are no longer involved, and the WAJ’s team’s understanding of their clientele understood the need for clearing things up. Well done on their part I’d say.
Anyone know the reasons why they sold the WA in the first place?
Too good an offer to pass up ?
Because of all the hock related to it, the kashrus, the pool. Them and their kids couldn’t go five feet without someone hocking them up about some aspect or another about the hotel. They were dying to sell it at the end.
@dan seems like the world gone mad. You don’t need our permission to write about what you want to write and how you want to say it on YOUR BLOG, if people don’t like it, don’t read it. Dan doesn’t force you to click here. Most people enjoy the insights of this travel mastermind and I believe we are all grown up enough to make our on conclusion about what we should and should not follow when it comes to religion. Dan is the man, but he is only one man who shares with his interested readers his story. Keep it up. These posts are more interesting to me then when tide goes on sale. Thanks
Thanks for the support 🙂
+1
Kashrus at the waj is all fluff right now.
This article is written and translated in English bc Rav nafcha doesn’t speak a word of it .
Also he’s of the Israeli type that the worst hechsher in Israel is better then the best hechsher in America (like star k) so he’s comfortable telling Americans everything there is glatt and ok to eat. I have heard from a big travel agent here that they obviously are feeling heat about hashgacha (and he is as well and he said people r nervous to book events there now)if they felt need to put that out and he is working on getting a very respected American Rav here in Israel who knows kashrus to try and help them and bring up the standards , we will see if that happens or it’s all talk about trying to fix it up
Who are some of those well respected rabbonim you mentioned?
Eretz Yisrael Nikneh B’yissurin.
Today we can fly there in a lie-flat Polaris seat and stay in the Waldorf just steps from the Old City, so I’ll accept the yissurin of having to ask a ton of she’eilos when I’m there and not being able to eat at the nicest restaraunts.
Good article Dan. We are blessed to live in Israel. We are also very blessed to have a Rav who works in international kashrut and is very up to date with what’s going on in Israel. The comments here are ridiculous. It is without a doubt easier in America. You’re getting a lot of flack here, but nothing you said is false. There’s more and more heckshers every day here. Most are not reliable if you eat mehadrin (especially if you consider “mehadrin” to be a loaded question). But there are places that have stam rebenut hekshers that are really mehadrin because it costs a lot more to get the mehadrin teuda. Also in Israel, unlike anywhere else in the world, you need to be careful of fruits and vegetables (arla, trumas/meiseras, cleaned). You really need a good Rav, and you need to be able to speak to the mashgiach and ask him what the situation is. Your article is really centered around Jerusalem. But we don’t live in Jerusalem (or Beit Shemesh, Efrat, etc). It gets even more complicated when you leave Jerusalem. But what can I say? It’s still a bracha to live here without a doubt. Thanks for your research on this and all the other topics, too.
It would be nice if you can get a rav that keeps to your standards in Israel to help you compile a list of acceptable places to eat in Israel. You can even create a pay for money app that I’m sure lots of people would download for the list. I myself have gone to some beautiful restaurants in Israel which my yerushalmi driver said were acceptable. But that was 3 years ago. I can give you the names to help you start.
Beyond everything that Dan mentioned about the confusion of Israeli Hashgachot, is the infusion of politics into the Hashgacha market as well. Two cases in point:
– There was a controversy in the last couple of years regarding the hashgacha of kinder eggs imported from europe. IIRC, there was an official importer who got the Rabbinate to sign off on the european hashgacha. Then there was a wholesaler who was able to import kinder eggs and circumvent the “official importer” laws, from the same plant, with the same european hashgacha, but the rabbinate wouldn’t sign off on it, and issued a statement telling people specifically not to buy them from the alternate importer.
– When I lived in Israel in the early 90’s, Pepsi has just ended its boycott of Israel, and was trying to make inroads in the country’s beverage market. It was bottled by the same plant in Bnei Brak as coke, and had the Badatz Eideh Charedit Hashgacha (one of the more stringent and wider accepted ones in Israel). In order to promote the brand, global pepsi (not the local brand) sponsored some top US acts to come over and give concerts. the concerts were on saturday night (after shabbat ended), but because people were likely traveling on Shabbat to get to the concert, the Badatz pulled the hashgacha and told people not to buy it – even though the bottling plant was fully shomer shabbos, they pulled the hashgacha, because the international brand may have caused people to be michallel shabbos.
Exactly. And figuring out what is politics and what is real is a major challenge when figuring out what hechsheirim to use.
The Mashgaich is a hired hand of the hotel to ensure it is only Mehadrin. I believe that is actually an indicator of a better standard. Presumably, the hotels revenue isn’t from the restaurant. That is an added amenity to entice guests to stay with them. If they would fool around with the kashrus they risk sabotaging their main source of revenue, the hotel stay. It’s different than a typical restaurant where the food is the business. If the hotel is marketing an amenity to bring in Frum guests by hiring a Mashgaich, is it not in their interests to maintain that level of kashrus ?
FYI: After searching for a nice and clean Hotel in Jerusalem I found a beautiful nice and new Hotel in Jerusalem and the Kashrus from the whole Hotel and near Restaurant is under Rabbi Rubin.
http://www.litovhotel.co.il/%D7%90%D7%95%D7%93%D7%95%D7%AA
Dan: Like you said it is a really frustrating experience to be touring in Israel and you feel like you have to be much more careful than if you are somewhere in remote AZ and can just walk into a supermarket and find hundreds of great products PLUS fruits and vegetables!!
Like your issues listed above, I had similar story with the Sheraton in Tel Aviv. Spent a LOOONG time researching before my trip to find out if I could eat the (free, SPG Gold) breakfast. Got the Mashgiach’s cell number…. he said that he would walk me through the products upon arrival. Well, I was told by that the bread came from one place off-site… but then the Mashgiach on the next shift said that it was Rabbanut! 🙁
Beyond frustrating.
theirs a joke that sums it up people arent מקפּיד on 3 things when thay are on vacation
פּס ישׂראל,חלב ישׂראל and ill leave out the 3rd one
Hi Dan,
Haven’t gone through all the comments (still have to work for a living), but it’s important to point out that with hotels there’s a big difference between Jerusalem and just about every place else.
Dan, I am not so sure I would rely on just “words” and would have to tour the kitchen myself in order to be so confident. Here in Israel, it is virtually impossible to rely on the same information all of the time, because 1) The workers are changing all of the time and 2) The Shechitah practices are not always consistent and changing sometimes, even bi-annually. 3) Unfortunately some restaurant owners take advantage of the clientele and hope they turn a blind eye just like what happened in Cleveland.
In Israel, the situation is constantly changing. It is especially even more challenging when the Shechitah houses will have multiple hechshers that do shechitah there during the week. In America the shechitah houses usually are owned and operated by the same company all the time, so the standards are not constantly changing.
In Israel, where most of the restaurants find it cost effective to hire Goyim to work for them, it is much harder to maintain a robust kosher environment and requires very close supervision. It is not enough to have a mashgiach on site. He has to be watching everything the Goyim do. In Israel the majority of workers in sit-down establishments are Goyim (arabs), because it is cheaper labor.
There is someone by the name of Rabbi Mordechai Kuber of Jerusalem Kosher who is known to be constantly researching the true “metzias” of the various Shechitah houses and practices in various restaurants and hotels, to the point where he will say by certain establishments “you can eat the meat but stay away from the chicken.” Or you can buy it (meat) frozen, but not fresh, from numbers 1-7, from this company, even if it’s a certain hechsher that ashkenaz don’t regularly eat, simply because he’s been inside almost every kitchen and shechitah house and visits them regularly. I’m not sure of anyone who can be that specific and not know what he is talking about.
I myself worked in an “OU Israel Glatt mehadrin” meat restaurant that is no longer in business. They also had a mashgiach there full time. I myself witnessed A goy (Arab) turning on the deep fryer and sticking the fish in the fryer (Bishul Akum according to all opinions) with the mashgiach sitting somewhere else in the restaurant. Just because a mashgiach says he’s in the restaurant the whole day does not mean he is supervising what’s going on in the kitchen the whole time.
I have also heard first-hand from someone who did tour the kitchen at the WALDORF that they found regular rabbanut meat in the fridge in the kitchen. I prefer to stay updated by asking this Rabbi Kuber (JerusalemKosher@gmail.com) who also happens to work for the OU and travels a lot, to rely on kashrus information.
Also it is helpful to know just that someone writes or says he uses Badatz ingredients, it just means Beis Din Tsedek and does not mean it is BADATZ EIDA CHAREIDIS.
Interestingly, based on insider information I know that the BADATZ Eidah Chareidis does in fact rely on the OU America for certain ingredients and factories that are based in far-out countries like Indonesia and Japan.
There are certain facts on the ground that clarify the different standards of hechsherim in Israel, and I hope this is useful and helpful information.
Hi,
I’d like to add that Rav Kuber did tour the Waldorf Astoria kitchen and listed several items to be fixed. The hotel refused to do so, so he did not recommend eating there. And this was while it was under the Reichman’s ownership! Now it’s just another plain rabbanut establishment, and I can’t imagine why any person who normally eats mehadrin would step foot into the place.
I know all about these modern mashgichim’s little speeches to fool the naive American tourists. Don’t be fooled for a minute! Graduated from yeshiva? Right… 😉
It always only had a plain rabbanut teudah when you called the hotel they never said anything other than this. So,
According to this nothing has changed. You either previously held by Rav Nafchas added personal ‘mehadrin’ hasgocho or you didn’t.
What exactly is Rabbanut Meuderet supposed to mean?
It simply means they use only mehadrin ingredients.
If it means they only use mehardin ingredients then what separates it from Rabanut Mehardin?
And separatley what is the difference between the both of those and Rabanut Stam?
Mehadrin isn’t only about ingredients. It’s already been explained how mehadrin ingredients can equal bishul akum.
It’s quite possible there is no mashgiach temidi either but that would only be speculation on my part.
Under mehuderet there is no mashgiach tmidi. Checked and verified.
In fact in one restaurant which had a mehuderet certificate my husband called the mashgiach and asked why he wasn’t there. His reply was to hang up on him.
Re rabbanut Stam. It’s been explained to me that besides that rabbanut Stam does not use basar chalak which should be a problem for anyone living in America who is regularly makpid only to eat glatt, they also do not require checking of vegetables , sifting of flour, checking legumes, etc. Also rabbanut means they accept any other plain rabbanut in the country, some of those may be lenient to the point where they may accept gelatin from non kosher animals just to go to some extreme examples.
thank you Dan, I appreciate the articles on kashrus I ate in a restaurant in jerusalem (antrikot) with delicious food I’m almost sure the hechsher was Rabbi Rubin
it was and still is.
rabbi kuber is the most reliable american rav regarding kosher in israel, simply because he has years of experience and wont give an opinion until he sees for himself. the reichman family actually was offended that he did not recommend eating at the WA and they invited him for a tour. he told them to implement a few changes. i was told that they did some of them, but dont know if they did all
In my humble opinion, Hashem made kashrus relatively simple, but we have made it extraordinarily difficult.
We have added chumras upon chumras that even our own great-grandparents would look askance at, and sadly, we focus far more about what goes into our mouths than what comes out of it. The lashon hara surrounding kosher observance at restaurants, hotels, etc. is, quite frankly, shameful and usually (with some notable exceptions) based on rumors, innuendo, and often ignorance over the incredible complexity, but also flexibility that may apply.
The “pay to play” model of kosher supervision, the commercial competition among supervising agencies and independent Rabbis and some of the factors mentioned above (and many more which deserve more consideration than is appropriate this forum) has led to divisiveness among Jewry, escalating prices that are borne unfairly by lower and middle-income Jews (and even non-Jews) for kosher products and collectively make it very difficult for restaurants (who are already challenged by being closed over 1/7 of the time) to open or succeed.
It is amazing that after 2000 years we have a Jewish state, more places to eat and keep kosher than ever before and for some traveling to Israel presents more challenges than Baltimore or Brooklyn.
Perhaps we should consider whether we have taken things more than a bit too far…
The Waldorf has a regular Yerushalayim Rabbanut hechsher, not a Mehadrin hechsher. Period. Restaurants that have the Mehadrin hechsher commit themselves to only using other Rabbanut Beit Din Mehadrin products. There are Rabbanut Mehadrin shechitot that haredim in Israel don’t eat from but because of the Rabbanut policy of accepting all other Mehadrin hechsherim, the restaurant can genuinely call itself and receive a Mehadrin hechsher. Like others who have commented I also make it a habit to personally speak to the mashgiach before I eat in a restaurant in Israel. However, I am suspicious of the argument that “everything is Glatt” when the establishment does not even have a Mehadrin hechsher. I am also not impressed by a mashgiach who publicly unabashedly describes himself as “the most qualified and trusted man for the job”. Until I saw this piece I had never heard of him. The two PR pieces from the same PR company only raise suspicion not lessen it. The first one clearly implied that the kashrus situation was not as good. Maybe the new owners threatened the Reichman family so they told their agency to do a nice piece. Either way, there is now a lot to check out at the Waldorf. If you are truly glatt and mehadrin, get a Mehadrin hechsher as a starter. If you don’t do that, why not? Doesn’t that make sense?
Be it remembered that it was Rabbi Gilden of the Vaad who uncovered the problems at Peking. I believe he now lives in Passaic and works for the Kof-K.
I spoke 2day the the rabbi of waldhorf like u say he told me some meats are rubin some khillot and some rabanut mehadrin and he told u cant know when u come to eat what meat is from what kashrut so if someone dosent eat rabanut meat its a problem
Rabanut meat is not the same as Rabanut mehadrin meat.
i mean someone who dosent eat rabanut mehadrin meat
Dan regarding your rental car comment, I can tell you I’ve rented from almost all companies and Albar is by far the most honest as these things.l go. They used to have the Thrifty license but since Hertz ownes that now they got the Europcar license. My friends works for them and they always have comparable rates or better. Reach out to me if you planning another Israel trip I’ll give you his info
Is the Jerusalem Rabinut Mehadrin reliable?
Dan, Any update on the Kashrus of the Waldorf?
Going to Israel, IT’H in a few weeks, would like to know.
Thanks.
Would anyone know if the Waldorf is or isn’t Gebrokts on Pesach? Thank you.
I fail to understand why a Jew is considered “frum” if he serves traif to a fellow Jew. For me this would be sad, not “frum.”
If the hotel meets high standards why can’t they get even רבנות מהדרין.
If even 10 people that stay there would walk in to the kitchen to see the kashrot, the hotel might start actually caring about the level.
I was asked people who are there why they eat there, every single person answer is because everyone else ho looks very frum is eating there.
It is time for a change
Any update on the status of the kashrus in the waldorf?