Update: Many readers have used the strategy below to save on cars since November, how have you done with buying a new car?
Originally posted 11/17/22.
I’m a big believer in buying a car over leasing it and have been preaching that on DDF for many years.
I mean, I understand that nothing compares to that new car smell, but few people do the math to calculate just how much they’re paying for that privilege.
We bought a Honda Odyssey Touring back in August 2013 for $37,000+$3,000 tax after negotiating about $5,000 off the sticker price. I added a 7 year Hondacare warranty for another $720 for the peace of mind.
We drove that car until 2 weeks ago, when we learned that the car was going to need some heavy maintenance in the near future. Until now, pretty much everything except routine maintenance has been covered by Hondacare.
So I requested a quote from Carvana, and they offered us $19,715 for the over 9 year old car.
How incredible is that?
When we bought our car, the cost of leasing it would have been around $616 per month. The actual cost of the car including tax and warranty was $21,000. We drove it without issues for 111 months. To keep things simple by ignoring the time value of money, lease price inflation, lease buyout, and many other factors, that means the car has been essentially free for the past 77 months. You can quibble with that math of course as it is oversimplified, but buying that car was a no-brainer for us.
Of course, now we would need a new car and anyone in the market for a van knows that dealers are having a field day with that due to demand outstripping the constrained supply chain.
Keeping a van for as long as we do, I wanted to get one with all the bells and whistles, and with 8 seats. That ruled out the Sienna, as it only comes with 7 seats on the higher trims. Parking sensors were a must, so I wanted to at least get the Odyssey Touring Trim. At that point, I figured that I’d splurge on the Elite trim, which adds niceties like hands-free tailgate, heated and ventilated front seats, and a wireless phone charger. I also assume that way down the line the higher trim will also be able to be resold for more money, so you’re not really paying the full cost of the upsell for each trim level.
I started by requesting quotes via AMEX/TrueCar and kept expanding the search to anywhere within about about a 7 hour drive of Cleveland, which stretched from Chicago/Detroit to NYC/Baltimore.
I had luck using TrueCar with the 2014 Odyssey, but this time I struck out via that service. Very few participating dealers had the van in stock and one dealer an hour away from us that did have it in stock got annoyed when I said I wanted a quote without any extras.
At least they offered “do” respect and explained that I should read the fine print when I asked why they wanted thousands above the price they were advertising there…
At this point I decided to search on Honda.com to build a car and then find which dealers actually had the van in stock.
The process is cumbersome, as we were willing to take pretty much any color, but you need to search for each color separately and repeat the process by zip code. It’s no easy feat to actually find a car in stock these days, but they do exist if you are willing to expand your search area and it will then display as in transit or in stock.
The only ones I found near me were for a car in transit, but I found that dealers were not willing to give a fair price for cars in transit, with “market value” selling prices and lot of bogus extras.
They wanted me to call them up, but I always insist on doing everything via email. However, even after going back and forth for the car in transit…
The quote was still more than I wanted to pay:
So I had to expand my horizons to dealerships that actually had the van in stock.
I found one in Baltimore, but they refused to sell to non-locals:
I then found a dealership outside of Pittsburgh that had one in stock. I asked for an out the door quote including taxes based on my home address.
Honda.com showed this for the MSRP for the car they had on the lot, based on the 8% tax rate for my home zip code:
They sent an initial quote just under those numbers:
I asked if they could sell the car for the base MSRP of $49,470 and waive the doc fee, destination charge, and other fees, and they came back with this:
I pushed again for what I asked for and they agreed to an additional discount to get there:
I asked the local dealer with the car in transit to match or come close to the price, but they said not a chance, and to let them know when the deal falls through.
But I was confident enough in the quote I got, so Mimi and I hopped into my Tesla Model 3 and we drove to the suburbs of Pittsburgh to pick up our new van.
There’s really nothing quite like Tesla Autopilot for a road trip. It takes all of the fatigue out of driving. The only pity is that they don’t make a van.
There was a Tesla supercharger within walking distance of the dealer, so I plugged in my car and we walked over to the dealer.
I have just a few free Tesla supercharger miles, so it worked out well…
https://twitter.com/DansDeals/status/1584643938941796353
The dealer couldn’t match the Hondacare quote I got from Hyannis Honda, so I bought a 7 year warranty from Hyannis for $845 with no sales tax owed on that. Adding an 8th year would have bumped it up to $1,285, which seemed hard to justify, though perhaps Honda knows that’s when issues start popping up?
The dealer didn’t try to pull any fast ones, and they honored the quote, which came out to $2,354.17 less than the MSRP+tax price on Honda.com, and several thousands of dollars less than I would have paid locally.
After a signing a bunch of documents, they handed over the keys. It was the most pain-free buying experience I’ve had to date. We ate some deli sandwiches made with Chicago’s famous Romanian meat that I had picked up a couple days prior, and then drove separately back home.
Passing my wife on the Ohio turnpike:
The local dealer who said they would have the car in transit ready for pickup any day, still doesn’t have it in stock, though they emailed asking if my deal fell through. I let them know it did not and to please take me off their email list.
The dealer from AMEX/True Car who went full “do respect” on me when I asked for a quote without extras as they advertised, kept pestering me until I asked for it to stop:
Carvana came to our house the next day and 2 minutes later I had a check for our old van and they drove away with the car and title. Their offer had beat the offers of every other online seller. I searched for our VIN on their site 2 weeks later and they’re trying to flip it for an $8,000 profit, though I’m skeptical they’ll get it. At any rate, it’s no longer my problem!
If you are trying to buy a car today, definitely search the manufacturer’s site for dealers that actually have it in stock, then try emailing them for an out the door quote including all taxes and without any extra fees or extras tacked on.
Oh, and of course be sure to use a fake phone number and a SPAM email address!
Several other DDF members have had success finding cars and vans at sticker price in Pittsburgh and its environs. I’m not sure why that would be, but it’s good to know!
Have you bought a van or car recently? What tips do you have?
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265 Comments On "[Readers Have Saved Thousands Using This Strategy!] How To Buy A New Minivan Without Getting Gouged; My Experience, Plus Leasing Vs. Buying"
All opinions expressed below are user generated and the opinions aren’t provided, reviewed or endorsed by any advertiser or DansDeals.
How do you go about finding dealerships with cars on their lot?
Please read the post. 🙂
We outgrew our Odyssey and after obsessively searching Enterprise Car Sales website for a year, a couple too cheap to be true 10 passengers popped up in the NYC area with absurdly low mileage and $3300 under KBB value, even after shipping costs. It was after closing time on the East Coast when I found mine, so I called as soon as they opened, verified the posted numbers were real, coordinated with my local Enterprise and got the car shipped. Totally painless buying experience and we had the keys a week later. We financed it using a 401k loan and were in an out of Enterprise in under an hour including the test drive.
We sold our 2013 Odyssey with serious cosmetic body damage to CarMax for $9000, which was $400 more than Carvana. Also painless.
Nice!
Carmax offered $700 less than Carvana in our case.
what model is good/cheap for 10px ?
We bought a 10 passenger Ford Transit. Keep an eye here. They will ship nationwide. The listing is sometimes wrong (they often exclude the front driver and passenger seats when they include the capacity in the description), so check the pictures and count the seats. I really like mine, and my husband installed aftermarket electronics to compensate for the fairly bare bones interior. It’s much, much, MUCH easier to buckle car seats. We had 6 in carseats in the Odyssey and it was not-great.
https://www.enterprisecarsales.com/list/buy-a-car/text-ford_transit/srp-sort-price–asc/?zipcode=37203
I am getting ready for the influx of comments on this one. 🙂
I live in Dallas, Bought a new car after getting told by all the dealerships “Everyone charges market adjustment” Turns out that’s not true found a dealer 45min north of Dallas who didn’t… They wouldn’t do much on a discount but I paid just under sticker
Nicely done. They may want you to think that, but it’s certainly not the case for every dealership. Especially if they have the car sitting on their lot.
I’m also in Dallas looking for a car, can you tell me which dealership this is?
Congrats on the new car!
Thanks!
Well done! Let me ask: did you use their financing?
I have the same question.
Dan, I was waiting for the part that you paid by cc, with 0% APR 😉
Just bought a Hyundai Ioniq 5. I was not in a rush, but it was a car I wanted for a while. I work in home health and am in the car a LOT, so getting a large comfortable EV was something I was looking forward to. I called over 2 dozen dealerships within 200 miles of me, but just about everyone wanted markups of $2-$10K over MSRP. Finally found a dealership that was actually somewhat local that was selling at MSRP to all in-state customers, put a deposit down in May and it got delivered in October! Loving it!
Who was the dealer? Im also looking for Ioniq 5
Annapolis Hyundai in Maryland
I used Algo to sell my car. Offer was $1,000 higher than Carvana.
They were $3,200 less than Carvana for me. But it’s always good to shop aroun!
Also used Algo to sell my car. Offer was $600 higher than Carvana. I guess it depends on many factors, I would advise to shop around online for the best offer when selling just as you do when buying.
Absolutely. I requested quotes from over a dozen places.
see thats a little nutty… time has value…
It took 5 minutes to fill out 15 online forms.
I’m now looking to sell my car. Would you share some of the top places you quoted at, so I can try my best luck?
Thank you!
Can you make a post or even just give the names of a few websites other than CarMax and carvana that would buy a used car with a fairly simple process. Quote online and come pick it up?
Thank you
https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/list-of-places-to-sell-or-value-your-car-online/396451
I’ve used Hertz car sales before and have had luck. In January 2019, I bought a 2017 Altima with 55k miles on it for $11,000 out the door. New Altimas were being quoted more than double that amount.
why fake numbers and emails?
Unless you like endless spam calls, texts, and emails to your primary email address and phone…
Where did you get 3rd party financing from?
Also curious, did you finance the car or pay it all up front? If financed, what was your APR?
I’ve always been a strong proponent of buying used cars over new cars and definitely over leasing. I preach this to family and friends. The key is to be patient in finding a car you like and from a private seller that looks somewhat trustworthy. You must also do your due diligence and home up your negotiating skills.
In 2005 I bought a 2001 ME/BE SLK 230 for 16K all in. Over the years i probably put in 5K maintenance and repairs. I sold the car for $5,000 in 2017. I had a net cost of $16,000 for that car over 16 years. You do the math.
That same summer I bought a 2008 BMW 3 Series for $5,500 which I’m driving to this day. I can easily get $4,000 for it today over 5 years later.
Point being. Buy cars over leasing. If you can’t afford to buy new then buy used..
Dan, as always, the man!
Finlay, this is a topic the last year a lot of people are busy.
Question: i have now a Honda Odyssey lease, which i pay 447.19. The lease finishes in 2 months after almost having it for 3 years. The question is, would you rather buy out the car or run to Pittsburgh dan style?
Btw how many miles do you drive a year?
You are at the dealer’s mercy with what he will charge you to buy it, and what he will charge you to return it. Don’t lease!
You can buy it out directly from Honda without your dealer, I did that with my 2018 Sienna.
Not if your lease has a purchase option like mine have had with set price at maturity.
Incorrect
You lease contract will usually have a buy out provision that you would pay to own the car outright at the end of your lease. You are not at all beholden or at the mercy of your dealer here. While third party purchasers have pulled back form buying the lease out form customers at lease end since Covid, you could still buy out the car if you really like it, or your dealer / a new dealer would pay you equity if you return it to them.
Your lease started then in 2019, your buy out price will be lower than what you can sell it for. If you don’t want to buy it, I’m sure you can find few people who’d buy it from you or take over your lease in order to buy it
if you’re not buying out the lease yourself, i would love to. please call 732 232 7167. thanks
I would buy out your lease if you don’t want it
Only stupid people lease cars. It’s paying someone’s bills for them to own a car, which you are merely borrowing for a couple of years.
Stupid people who rather not deal with mechanics and repair bills
That’s why I buy the Hondacare coverage.
You still have to bring in your car to be fixed. Having 2 cars will solve this issue.
Keep in mind the car downtime when sitting at repair shop even with Honda care. Time is money…
You do realize that they pay 20 cents out for each dollar you pay in
First of all, that wasn’t true for us, we about broke even on it.
Second of all, you’re talking about spending $800 on a $50,000 purchase. Even though they make money on average, do you want to risk being the outlier over just 1.6% of the purchase price?
Most warranties are indeed a bad deal, but I’ll happily spend $800 for 7 years of peace of mind on a $50K purchase.
Would you know if I am buying KY car off lease, is the Honda care available?
Thanks
Wcf, yeah that’s what warranties are for. Your logic equates to someone who would think it’s wiser to rent an apartment their whole life than it is to purchase a house, simply because they don’t want to fix the toilet when it clogs. There is such thing as equity in automobiles too. In a lease, one has negative equity.
There is no equity in a automobile, it’s a depreciating asset only recently it was an unprecedented thing that autos had equity
Why call people stupid?
For some it is worth the extra money to drive a new car. Not everyone cares just about getting the best deal.
No, lots are buying out their leases so leasing is almost like financing without the additional pressure to finish paying the whole car msrp
Not correct. We have had three all-electrics with payments of $164. $197, and $264 after state incentives. Of course that is impossible on EV,’s now. We are taking of our lease end purchase option and have been offered almost ,$8000 more for the vehicle. Do the math.
Why not a Pacifica hybrid to claim the $7,500 tax credit?
Drive that VS an Odyssey and you’ll know the answer
Alas, I like to pay for that new car smell every two years
Had to go through this rodeo myself last summer. When the ultrasound revealed we were expecting twins, we knew our sedans would not work for hauling three children in car seats so we decided to get a minivan. Had to expand our search to a 4-5 hour drive radius and it was rough, but finally found someone who would sell it for MSRP and give us a $2K discount by financing through them. Most everyone else wanted a $3K markup.
One tip, if possible, do a test drive locally to help you know what you like. We couldn’t find a new one, but test drove a one year old model that was virtually the same.
Ended up getting a Pacifica hybrid. Over the last year we’ve put about 5K Mike’s on it, 4K of which have been all electric. I think we’ve filled up the gas tank around 6 times and half of those, the tank wasn’t close to empty. Oh, and the $7500 tac credit sure was nice.
Dan, I would think that a mini van owned by a celebrity such as Dan of Dan’s Deals would be a prized collectors item selling for a premium.
Talk about a great experience!
May I ask what the mileage was on your old Odyssey ?
The cost of leasing it would have been around $616 per month
In 2013 the cost for mini van leases were that high?
That was what the NYC Jewish leasing places were quoting for a Touring at the time, after tax.
Lufthansa would call it ‘a Jewish problem’ 🙂
“So I requested a quote from Carvana, and they offered us $19,715 for the over 9 year old car.”
You got lucky you sold the car in the height of the pandemic shortage of minivans
Usually a 10 year old minivan your lucky to sell for 9000 let’s make this clear lol
Fair enough, though it’s probably more than that for a Touring. And I’d also be able to negotiate to save more on the replacement car during normal times, so I saw that as a wash.
Wow, new minivans are expensive. A year ago, we bought a used 2018 Sienna with 35k miles for $25k. It was to replace our previous 2005 Sienna that we had also bought used in 2008.
Once in a blue do used car value go up so much in the past 2 years. Now it’s over no more.
It’s really difficult.
I managed to snag a 2023 Rav-4 Hybrid Limited fully loaded in Nebraska (1600 miles away) for sticker (with a few add ons but useful ones at least) plus $149 doc fee.
It was sheer luck, I had never dealt with this dealer before but the deal was agreed on within minutes by phone and email. It’s being built on 11/21/22. All other places were charging a minimum of 3k and up to 6k or so over sticker OR they didn’t have any eta at all OR they refused to sell to an out of state customer. You can find cars at sticker these days…
I’m looking for this vehicle, can you share the dealership?
Team Toyota in Scott’s Bluff, NE
Paid sticker on a 22 sienna LE. Drove 3 hours to get it. It took calls to 6 dealers until I found one with MSRP price on a Sienna 4 months out. It was nice considering that Toyota in lakewood was selling base model Corolla for 33k
I am looking for a new Sienna LE for MSRP. Which dealer did you use?
Rental Car sales are definitely the way to go. You can often find cars with 15k-20k miles on them selling for half the price of the same car new. And the process is seamless – no haggling, no spurious add on fees, and easy to see what’s in inventory.
Rental cars have a bad reputation because people assume that the passengers driving them “abuse” the car, but that’s really just exotic rental cars like a mustang or porsche. Nobody is doing donuts or cruising down the freeway at 100mph in a Pacifica.
Uh, I’ve done donuts and 100mph in a rented Sienna…
WOW! How many lives did you endanger?
That’s what you think…
Most cars are not drivin by kids on bein hazmanim trips.
First of all, yes, some people do abuse rentals. 20 years ago our van driver for school rented a car for a (snow) day to drive in the 3 kids who were willing to go in. Let’s just say the car had no reverse by the time he was done. (Apparently transmissions don’t like being put in reverse at highway speeds! Who knew!)
If anything, exotic cars get less abuse than regular cars because of how much more expensive they are. They are driven harder, sure, but not abused (like driving over the median, cigarettes, etc.) And a Mustang is an exotic car?
Second, you have to be careful with the rental car sales. Sometimes they are cheaper, other times they are way more expensive. I know an individual that bought from Enterprise for several thousand more than the dealer around the corner was asking for the same car with more options and fewer miles.
You also have to keep in mind that most rental cars are going to be base or near-base models. Sometimes, they are even special sub-base models specifically built with deleted options you wouldn’t even be able to order if you wanted. (e.g. manual windows in a post-2020 car.)
I had no issues finding Sienna XLE’s on Enterprise.
And to use one anecdote from 20 years ago is not particularly compelling. If the car has no reverse, it probably won’t be in the pool of cars making it to the rental market.
Even if it was, the rental car companies give you 3-7 days to test the car out. You can take it straight to your mechanic and for $120 they will do a full auto body check to give peace of mind.
A mustang is an exotic car in that an average joe who is used to driving a camry getting one from a rental company is likely to be a lot more “liberal” behind the wheel than if they were getting a Honda Accord from the rental company
True, one anecdote does not make for an undeniable fact, but the point I was trying to make is that abuse does happen, and it is really hard to tell (even when the mechanic checks it out) until things start going faster than they should. It’s a risk you need to decide to take. (And it’s a risk that is probably fair to assume is higher with a rental car than other used cars.) On the flip side of that coin, the rental car company is more likely to take better care of regular maintenance on their cars than a lot (probably most) private owners. Buyers need to weigh the chances of each side of that coin.
As for the pricing – as I said, sometimes they are cheaper, sometimes not. Up until the 90’s (?), you could go to a rental car company and 99% of the time they would be cheaper than anything else. That no longer holds true. I would say (based on pre-Covid research and my gut) that it’s probably 50/50 – sometimes they are cheaper, other times they are not. You need to do your homework for such a large investment.
You bet they are.
I do not believe the phrase that rental cars aren’t abused.
Great post, Dan. As someone contemplating buying out my lease now, can you share what repairs (covered by Hondacare in your case) needed to be done in the past few years?
Ditto Dan. I bought an Ex-L odyssey in February 2021. The whole deal was done over a cold call over the phone (I called a bunch of dealers including plaza in Bklyn and some dealers in Lakewood). The actual cost out the door I paid was 38+k with tax, which is less than the 39+k msrp for the ex-l.
Man, I really do think we think alike sometimes. I’m always trying to help others (family, friends, and colleagues) about common sense things like this; even when the time and stress of trying to convince them how much better off they would be if they just looked at the facts…
I think we have the same birthday too 11/26?
Anyhow, this isn’t a love letter, but acknowledgement and hakaras ha tov for what you do. I would love to chat one day.
-Eh
Nice, and it sure is!
Timely article as I’m in the process of buying a new minivan. But no way I’m driving to hicksville Pittsburgh to save a few dollars. I’d rather spend a few more dollars and retain my dignity.
Dan won’t say it, so I will.
So says a putz^ lol!
Its the equivalent of work for 1 day and making $10,000. Not sure where dignity comes in for a nice drive.
If $10,000 is a few dollars to you, then kol haKavod.
I feel bad if it’s below your dignity to save a few thousand dollars.
Saving money is not below my dignity but it is beneath my dignity to support a business in a state that constantly rigs elections.
So, where do you live.New York State? New Jersey with Phil Murphy? Lol
Lol
I’ll pick it up for you and split the 10K with you
Another thing to consider if u do lease a minivan u have the option to buy it out usually comes out about 1/2 the msrp from 3 years ago
Say all you want, One never comes out ahead leasing a car.
Tell that to all the folks who were coming off leases in the last 12 months and bought there vans
So, for one brief moment in history, leasing didn’t come out that far behind. That’s not exactly proof. What do you say to all those people who started leases from late 2020 till mid-2022, when leases were double and triple pre-covid rates, and whose buyout next years is probably going to be way higher than the car’s value?
Some dealers do MSRP on minivans for orders (although, most of the time they’re not technically custom orders, more like they request to be allocated vehicles with those specs) and not for those in stock. I ordered mine, was 6-9 months wait time. Got it in less than 3 months, and I locked in financing (not through the dealer) right before the rates shot up. No bogus fees, forced add ons, and got exactly what we wanted.
We went with the Kia Carnival over the Sienna and Odyssey.
How do you know when they write “market value selling price” if it’s inflated with bogus charges or not?
On both screenshots from 2 different dealers I different “markte value selling price” quotes.
I thought only when they add to the MSRP thats when they call it market value selling price.
It’s all a shell game.
Just look at the MSRP+tax page on the manufacturers site for what the out the door price should be and compare it to what you’re being offered out the door.
Love my 2021 Odyssey but the mileage is really pretty terrible
just picked up 22 Sienna LE AWD 8 seater, 35mpg hybrid for MSRP, we put 1k deposit down 6 months prior to save our spot in line. Aldermans in Rutland , VT. dealerships in our area in NJ charging 5-6k over MSRP. flew on plane going and drove 4 hours back.
Pardon my ignorace, We’re you allowed to finance the car in order to get the car for such a low price, also what means “out of the door” quote?
Sure, you can finance with the dealer or a 3rd party.
Why do you think that dealers that have it in stock would sell it for cheaper then those that have it in transit? If I’m not mistaken one of your first screenshots shows a very high price even though they had it in stock
Because there’s a cost to holding inventory on a lot.
Of course, it’s not a guarantee, but it’s a very good place to start.
When you write you bought out the old car, do you mean to say that you leased it then bought it out ?
Where did I say that?
I have never leased a car.
I thought so , bcs first it says yWe bought a Honda Odyssey Touring back in August 2013 for $37,000+$3,000 tax after negotiating about $5,000 off the sticker price, then it says , The actual cost of the car including tax and warranty was $21,000, so did you Pau 37k or 21k ?
$37,000+$3,000+$700=$40,700 price paid including warranty and tax.
Less $19,700 Carvana sale price=$21,000.
FYI there are services that would transport for you for around $500. I just paid sticker in Massachusetts and did a transport for $500 to bring to NJ
Name of transporter?
“The dealer couldn’t match the Hondacare quote I got from Hyannis Honda” , can you take the car by one dealer and take insurance by an other dealer ? Are prices for basic care that much of a difference?
Yes, you can buy Hondacare from any dealer and it’s honored by every Honda dealer.
There’s a huge difference in price.
Do you have the take the car in for repairs to the dealer you bought the warranty from?
No
Anyone tried buying a Sienna in or around NJ? Would love t buy online so everything is straightforward. From reviews on Yelp, I gather that a trip to a dealer is a full day affair. Then they pull their shtick & you leave empty-handed.
Try to do everything via email and have a final out the door quote in hand before going into the dealer.
we drove 4 hours to get our car and had done all paperwork and it still took over 2 hours.
Took us 10 minutes. We did everything before.
I leased a chevy bolt in 2019. When you count the $ GM gave me for driving a car that had a 1/20k chance of catching fire, I was paid 250/month to drive the car. And, after 18 months, I sold rights to the lease for $5k profit.
It all depends on the market and the deal you get.
Nowadays (or until a month or so ago), anyone with a car, whether it was leased or purchased, has come out ahead.
But anyone buying or leasing a car has come out behind, unless you’re willing to search far and wide. But that being said, the market has softened quite a bit over the next month and likely will continue to do so over the next year.
In general the sweet spot for buying over leasing is when you keep your vehicle for over 6 years. Most people need to finance for 5 years and the monthly payments for purchase are higher than leading. That being said if you don’t mind keeping the vehicle for 6 years or more, purchasing is better.
However, just so you are aware, even on leasing you can have equity in the car. You pre negotiate the buyout price at the begging of the loan. I have been able to get thousands of dollars on a lease. My current minivan lease is coming to an end and the dealership with buy the vehicle for 10K over my pre negotiate purchase price.
Another thing to consider is that leasing gives you the peace of mind. If G-d forbid someone is in an accident, there vehicle will have a very weak resell value. If you leased your vehicle, you can turn it in and not buy it out, but if you purchased, you are stuck with a bad vehicle.
Sorry. This doesn’t make any sense. If you damage a lease you still owe damages to the leasing company. That’s what insurance is for….
I bought off someone else’s 3 year old lease, financed and now own my car outright. Much better deal….
We got a Sonata in June and drove 4 hours to Ithaca to pick it up. We had called basically every Hyundai dealership in the country. It was much cheaper than Brooklyn and hassle free.
My Kia Sportage 2019 lease was up After 3 years.
I paid about $15000 to buy it.
Was that a good deal?
The monthly during the 3 years was $220
Leasing is cheaper sometimes, in my case my 2020 pilot im leasing for under $350/ 36m and my buyout price is $24,000 which is cheaper than buying in to begin with
Sienna 2022 from Ganley Toyota in Ohio….was sticker price and honored. As a native Clevlander, I keep going back to buy all my cars. The plus is I usually get to catch an Indians/Guardians game while I’m there
Did you try rodo they’ve had beat prices lately
Yes. They offered $3,700 under Carvana.
I would not do business with Rodo. They quoted me a price and made an error on the paperwork. Promised to refund me the $500 rebate I qualified for. Never did.
Do you derive special pleasure in mocking people on your website? The whole “do respect” comment you kept harping on makes you look petty.
You are not superior to others. Grow up. Demonstrate some humility.
I don’t think I’m better than anyone else on earth.
Well, besides for a car salesman advertising sticker and then trying to gouge people for $7,000 above sticker that is!
Dan, do you have a list of dealers that are selling cars at Msrp? How do I find them
No. My suggestion is in the post, search online to find dealers that have what you want on their lot and then email them to negotiate.
There are some websites and google sheets on reddit that attmept to do this. They arent great but can be a start.
markups.org can be a resource.
I just got an Odyssey sport the same color! And from OH delivered to NJ. Only 495 with 500 out of pocket.
It’s a lease. I’ll always lease cars.
My condolences
Leasing a car before the inflation was usually the way to go get great prices plus every payment goes towards the buyout price so it like buying a car and the big advantage you have if the car after 3 years is not in great shape or hade a accident you can walk away if you do like the car do a buyout you can continue to make payments till the end it’s just how to split up the msrp
My Nissan rogue sport 2020 is $266, zero down first month free.
I’m 25 months in and very happy, one can’t say that buying was better, at the time I got a fantastic deal leasing.
In 11 months I’ll have to see what will be
Yea, but thats like spending ~$9500 for 36 months, to then do it all over again.
I had a very similar experience, I was looking to buy a rav4 prime (phev) alot less available then a van. I broadened my horizon and was able to get it at Msrp in upstate NY. They didn’t try to sell me any extras. I think once you get far enough from the “city’s”. You will find decent prices.
Just. To add on to my previous comment, I sold my car as well. To Algo. Absolutely fabulous experience
In my experience, Carmax beats all other dealers when selling a used car to them, including Carvava.
They offered $700 less than Carvana to me.
@DAN , CSO RAdio in Lakewood can add 8th seat( matching other seats in a 7 passenger Sienna for like $800. I just locked ups 7 passenger XSE in PA for sticker and having CSO add 8th seat . Came out to little over 50k including jersey tax and tags. Still not sure which is better vehicle odyssey touring or upper trim Sienna. upside of Sienna is hybrid and AWD and odyssey has back windows that open and better storage and middle row comes out( which new Sienna don’t)
Interesting.
Some other factors:
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=131313.msg2654042#msg2654042
A few years ago I looked into CSO Radio adding in an 8th seat. Didn’t go with it in the end because I couldn’t find info about 1) passenger safety in that seat in the event of an accident ch”v.) and 2) whether this kind of thing (bolting an extra seat into the chassis?) would void the mfg warrantee and/or compromise the structural integrity of the vehicle. Any DDF folks have information addressing either of these concerns? TIA
We bought out the lease for our 2018 Honda Odyssey for $31k and sold to Rodeo who gave us the highest quote for $36k+. We still took another lease and chose not to go with buying because we do like having a new car every 3 to 3.5 years (we do 36, 39, or 42 months lease, but never more than that).
I don’t understand how a lease would have cost you $616. I also leased back then from the Jewish places and it was significantly less than that. My current car is from a dealership in Queens because that’s who had one in stock for me and had the best lease price. Jewish places had nothing and wanted insane prices for cars coming in a few months, so although I’ve used them until now, and am happy to support Jewish businesses, unfortunately had to move my business elsewhere this time around.
What trim did you lease, what was the down payment, fees, term, and monthly rate including tax?
Dan, can you post the name of the dealership you used please? Ill contact them to see if they have what im looking for
Thanks
They only had one on the lot. However I have heard from several people getting deals in Pittsburgh, so look at in stock inventory there.
If you don’t mind forgoing the “new car smell” for 9 years, I don’t understand how it can be worth to buy a vehicle brand new.
In normal times, a vehicle loses around 20% of it’s value in its first year. A few thousand dollars gets thrown out just by driving it off the lot and rendering it ‘used’. When the market stabilizes (which seems to be happening quicker in the used market), it can easily equal a loss of 10k or more for the first year, or $833 per month. Even now, you can pick up a 21 Odyssey Elite for 40k from enterprise.
With the current constraints showing signs of easing, it seems it would make more sense for anyone who isn’t desperate for a new vehicle right now to wait it out a bit more, and then buy a used late model at a large discount.
Aside from this, I would note that 2023 will be the 6th year that this odyssey is in production. It’s probably due for a redesign soon which will further reduce its value, as it’s equipped with 2018 technology. The drivetrain especially will be obsolete, with its outdated real world fuel economy.
1. I would never buy a rental car. Happy to pay an extra $9K for new, to know that it hasn’t been abused, and to get hondacare coverage.
2. The flip side is that your trade in will also go down when those constraints ease, so that’s probably a wash.
3. The first several years of a redesign are notoriously buggy and poorly rated for reliability by Consumer Reports. New tech costs more and takes time to mature. Even if the ’24 is redesigned, I wouldn’t want to buy that.
Lol just live in Israel for a year or two, then the prospect of paying an extra $10k over MSRP seems like a steal by comparison.
Can’t even imagine what this would have cost there!
Thanks for the advice. My 2011, Subaru just started burning oil and a new car might be needed in a few years. I appreciate your help in figuring this all out. Be well.
Just keep topping off the oil.
For leasing in NJ and maybe NY, check out Finn and Go car subscription. Their prices can be significantly less especially for minivans.
Our last new vehicle purchase 2018 was thru Costco MSRP $42K net after tax credit and Costco discounts (ST/FED) $29K. plus 0% interest for 74 months. Its a Plig-In Hybrid with about 25 miles of battery range but we average over 100 eMPG we fill our gas tank every few months.
We bought a 2019 Ford Fusion Hybrid for my daughter with 20K miles June 2020 from Avis for$14K (could sell for $20K+ easily) .
Nice. Costco came up with nothing for me this time.
How do you get a 0% interest rate?! Is that still possible post Covid? I have good credit score but the interest rates I was quoted now in 2022 are insane
Great article Dan! I am still driving my 2009 Honda Odyssey with over 325,000 miles on it. Hopefully I get 300k more! I continue to drive it weekly to visit my mother who lives 125 miles away 1 way. I trust my Honda Odyssey!
My wife and I have been in the market to purchase a new van also since the beginning of COVID. We have stated we are not paying the enormous fees from all the Dealers in our area(Eastern NC/Tidewater VA). Now since you have share your story I may decide to shop again. Thank you, Ricster
Thanks, and nicely done with that Ody!
do they give it cheaper because you financed with them ?
I also dealer shopped but i wanted to pay on the spot and the cheapest dealer would only honor the price if i financed it -(in retrospect i should have tried to finance with no or very few upfront fees and then just paid it off early)
Best practice is to negotiate a low cash price and then you can ask if they’ll knock anything off if you finance with them. Same goes if you have a trade-in, mention it only at the end.
In my case this time they weren’t willing to go lower for financing, but in 2013 another dealer did go lower with financing the Ody.
@dan Was yoir offer lucrative because it wasn’t dependable on financing?
No, in general financing with the dealer can often make it cheaper as they get kickbacks for that.
If the dealer gets kickbacks from a financial loan arrangement, can someone technically finance a new car, and pay it all off in the first month?
Yes.
Except that they typically capitalize some of the lease cost
I’m glad you seem to have gotten a better price than most.
For readers, it may be worth noting that the dealer makes money on financing too. Depending on terms, that can sometimes mean an inferior deal for the buyer.
Yeshiva hockers with their leases of Infinities and Accords. Some things never change…
3 Million cars are leased every year, so not just yeshiva hockers
If you what a car that will last you forever get a Toyota if you want a minivan that will last you forever get a Toyota Sienna.Ask any mechanic. Toyota and Lexus makes the most reliable cars that can last the longest.
Not anymore. The Kia is just about as reliable, at 25%-50% less cost. Toyota and Honda have been slowly going downhill for years, while Kia/Hyundai has been getting better. The new Kias are not the 90’s Kias, just like the new Toyotas are not the 90’s Toyotas.
Dan- the Sienna XLE PLUS has all the features you mentioned with 8 seats. And gets 36mpg instead of 22mpg. But then you get all the downsides of the new Sienna design
It has hands-free tailgate, ventilated front seats, wireless phone charger, auto wipers, etc?
Ody is also just a roomier car.
Xle has power lift gate and wireless charging with plus package but no ventilated seats only heated . only the otp model platinum has ventilated seats and rain sensing wipers
The Ody Elite has hands-free liftgate, you just kick your leg under the trunk and it opens or closes.
Perfect for when your hands are full.
so does Sienna
You need a separate blog to debate the Sienna vs. odyssey.
Good to know, but still prefer the bigger Odyssey.
And I am a sucker for ventilated seats 😀
Yes sir. It does. I can post the window sticker in the forums if you want
buy in canada, much cheaper there and import to america
What is a ’23 Elite going for there?
@Dan Talking about extended warranty. I bought a used 2019 Sienna Xle with 68000 miles on it for $35600 walk out price! Ouch. The dealer sold me a extended warranty for 6 years for $2500 which covers bumper to bumper . I can still cancel it with a deductible $50 processing fee. Is it something that pays to hold? I would really appreciate any insight
Cancel it and get your money back ASAP. Complete rip-off.
You got robbed.
Why did you decide to go the route of selling to Carvana (or any other 3rd party) vs trading the van in (and avoiding sales tax on that amount)?
Because they offered significantly more for it.
Ah.
Curious – did you go back to the dealer and say “Carvana oferred me XYZ”?
Yes, they said to definitely sell it to them for that price.
I am trying to figure out if you were being nice by letting your wife drive the new van back home or if you just wanted to use the Tesla autopilot?
Lol, she prefers driving the Ody over the Tesla.
!על טעם וריח אין להתוכח
We got a Toyota sienna last year new and it’s 8 passenger
Hondacare warranty can be purchased for used Honda cars?
Why would you buy a 7 year warranty for a new car doesnt Honda give you a long warranty for a new car?
If they are Honda certified used, it seems like that is an option.
Ody has a 3 year warranty, so essentially I added 4 years to that for $210/year.
Hey Dan
My dad needs a big car with 8 seats and until now has been buying or leasing Chevy suburbans. He can’t buy a foreign car as none he looked at are big enough or don’t have enough seats. He drives a lot, around 25-30k miles every year. Would it make sense for him to buy or to lease?
Ody isn’t big enough?
At that many miles, buying is no brainer.
Yeah that would be perfect, if not for the fact that he needs a lot of cargo space for boxes, on top of 8 people needing to sit in the car. I don’t think the Ody has the cargo space needed.
If he needs to get a suburban or similar, does it pay to lease over buying? as the amount of miles driven, combined with the fact that it’s an American car that starts having maintenance issues after 100k or so miles. His last suburban had major issues with the transmission and other parts that needed to be replaced after only 4-5 years and 120k miles driven.
Has he looked at it?
Ody has a massive trunk.
My understanding is that leases for 25K miles/year are cost prohibitive, but that’s out of my wheelhouse.
If the whole story would have started and ended 5 years earlier, the calculation would have been very different. you need to keep in mind the recent jump in the price for cars.
Many people sold their lease for a big profit after the price jump.
I am also of the opinion that it is better to buy. but someone who buys a car for 37k will not be getting 20k in 10 years from now.
Not really. A Touring would still hold its value nicely after 9 years. Perhaps not $20K, but $15K would be reasonable.
Plus in normal times, I’d have been able to negotiate a bigger discount on the new car, as I did in 2013, which would mean I’d be close to this same scenario.
IMPORTANT FACTS. Before 2021/22 car shortage, buying ONLY made sense for people who can/want to keep a car for 5/6 years minimum. OTHERWISE leasing makes more financial sense. Other factors is if car gets beat up if like in brooklyn and lakewood. ALSO don’t forget if you own a car and it gets any small accident, knock off 10% of you value right there. Bottom line is, it depends a lot of factors. When you could lease a car for $200 per month, which wasn’t uncommon, nothing can beat that, nothing. Today’s environment is more challenging, but it’s temporary.
Got a new sienna by google searching for dealerships that sell for msrp. Got a brand new van from a dealership in New Hampshire. It’s a basic LE, paid under 40k. Used vans were selling for that much in the local Heimeshe dealerships.
Can you post the name of the dealership?
@dan curious what kind of repairs needed to be done on your old van that it wasn’t worth it for you, yet you still to manage to sell for so much?
Happens to be that I picked up a 2023 Odyssey Sport this week 200 miles from where I leave because they sell at MSRP and they still tried selling me products, hiking the rate up, and other creative shtick that made me spend close to 3 hours till I was able to drive off the lot with the best deal.
In retrospect, if a local dealer would be straight with me and would sell me at 1K Over MSRP I’d take it.
Was a 12-hour trip, + had to pay for a one-way rental car, and was waiting for close to 3 months for it.
This is why I’d never go into a dealer without a written OTD quote.
The actual cost of the car including tax and warranty was $21,000. You said earlier you paid total $40,000 how did your price change. Second, not everyone has $40,000 to dish out that is why people choose lease then the buy out section.-if you would finance it instead of leasing the monthly payments would be the same. Also you claim for 77 months you drove for free but it wasn’t you paid for the car. Also you purchased the honda care but it didn’t even cover routine maintained so what was the point. In all there are many factors going into leasing vs owning. In the long run yes it would be better to purchase or after the lease to buy out. I understand people get excited over dansdeals but here you faltered.
1. As I wrote, it cost effectively $21K for 111 months of driving after what I sold it for.
2. There was 0% financing back then. Only difference was I drove free for 77 months compared to leasing.
3. Hondacare took care of several issues that came up. And I included that in my cost.
Honestly Dan. The comparison isn’t appropriate. Compare leasing for 3 years vs owning for 3 years. Your calculations are like saying going first class is the same as taking 3 connections… saying it’s so much cheaper is obvious…. Driving a 7 year old car is of course cheaper. Might as well say to buy a used car is so much cheaper then buying new….. love your stuff. This one could be better….
Hi. Math and finances don’t work like that. You don’t say well in 10 years we look back and say it costed etc.. You need to look for here and now how much can I spend and will it cost more to lease vs own. In actuality it costs more money to finance then lease at the start of ownership. I agree in the end it is better for a person to own the vehicle then lease. But you disregarded the fact that newer cars have more safety sensors that cost more than older models.
[Its funny reading what some people want like wireless charging doesn’t seem to understand they don’t work most of the time. you should inform customers all the bells and whistles cars have are not worth the extra money since if they get damages they cost a lot to fix and a lot of times don’t work.] I get both sides but really you should do a luxury vehicle vs standard vehicle and see if the price difference is really worth it or people just want to show off.
Which issues?
due (not *do*) respect.
That’s my point. The scammy dealer also couldn’t spell.
Very interesting writeup – not in the market for a new car, but when I took my 2009 Sienna in for service last month there was a 2015 Sienna on the showroom floor for $20K – with almost 100K miles ! Used minivan prices are crazy. BTW, belated thanks for the news on the 60K United Business flights to Cape Town last spring. Just got back earlier this month – that is the way to go for 14 hours non stop !
I had a similar experience a few months ago. Every dealership wanted an exorbitant price tag, and I found a KIA dealer that sold me a Kia Carnival at ticket price. It takes some homework but proper pricing can be found.
I believe the “car shortage” was artificially caused by greedy dealerships.
I love buying a car by email, no matter the market conditions. I have bought our last 3 vehicles this way since 2009. I have not experienced price changes when arriving to pick up the vehicle, but the dealers love trying to add their “packs”!
How do you learn the email addresses of dealerships?
I did it via Honda.com after building the car and locating the inventory.
I’ve read that the shortage of computer chips means that some new cars are being sold with some functions non-functional. E.g., blind spot warning doesn’t warn, lane hold doesn’t hold, etc. Are others encountering this, and how do you know if everything is working when you price a new vehicle?
You were lucky that Carvana was ready to pay that much. Generally, in normal times you would never get back that much.
And generally I’d have paid thousands less for a new car via email negotiating, so that’s a wash.
But you didn’t account for the inflated trade in price when you did your calculation on the cost of owning. Granted I agree it’s a wash when you calculate the new one, but not in reverse….
we also sold our 2011 Sienna XLE when it was die for some large repairs this past December and got $13,400 from it from Carmax in OH. Super easy process (bought It 5 yrs prior for $18k!)
My wife likes Toyota so I was looking for a new Sienna at MSRP. Found an 8 seat XLE 2022 in Bedford OH for $41,900. The dealership tried forcing some warranties on us but negotiated that down to $800. I was out the door for $46k 11 months ago and locked in 1.89% financing for 64 months. I agree 100% with Dan that buying is the way to go if you are willing to hold a car for 5 years+
The best option in normal times is to buy a car that is almost new. Obviously that wouldn’t work today with the shortage and inflated prices on used vehicles, but in normal times a vehicle looses a nice chunk of its value right when it is driven off the lot. A Sienna that I’d around a year old with a few k miles on it usually beats both leasing and buying new hands down. And you can still pick up an extended warranty.
I purchased a 2017 Toyota sienna rather than leasing as everybody else in my family did.
Thanks to DDF thread in your advocating.
Definitely owe you a thanks. Financed it 48 months at 0 APR.
Curious if you tried any of the nyc lease dealers to quote you a purchase? I’m sure it wouldn’t have been as cheap but curious if these guys that do this all day know how to get a good deal…
I about to take delivery of a 2023 odyssey. Inspired by you, I went on carvana to try to sell my 2014 sienna and they offered me 8.5k!!! 134k miles in great mechanical and very decent cosmetic condition… Dan somehow always manages to pull off these “simple” things;-)
You can probably sell it locally for more
Can you refinance the car loan if rates go down next year?
Yes, I believe so.
Anyone know a dealer I can get a new Camry for msrp
The Toyota sienna Xle has an option for 8 seats the xse only comes with 7 seat option
Anyone experienced in Consumer Law know if it’s legal to ban selling to non locals? I thought constitution forbids discrimination like that against citizens of other States in commerce.
First off Big thank you Dan I was in middle of pricing out an Odyssey and because of your post I negotiated and got $2K off.
Geico offers for around $5 a month a mechanical breakdown insurance for new vehicles, do you think buying the warranty is necessary on top of that?
Awesome!
I’m assuming there’s a deductible on that? Hondacare has no deductible.
$250 deductible.
I’d definitely choose Hondacare with no deductible.
Thank you!
they offered me Hondacare on a brand new odyssey for $2385 for 7 years 80k miles.
ANy idea why its so much more?
Who is they?
The Honda dealership that I am buying the van from.
Why not buy it from the Hondacare dealership I wrote about in this post?
The one in Pittsburg? I already have it ready for pick up in NJ.
Aren’t all Honda dealerships connected? (they did tell me that with the Hondacare I can service it at any Honda)
No, read the post.
Yes, but they charge any price they want.
Wow, I missed that part!
I emailed them and looks like I should be able to get that price.
So this is exactly what the Honda dealer was trying to sell me for 3 times the price?
Yes.
I owe you one!!!
Can a dealership obligate you to buy a lojack on a 2019 certified Used Honda Odyssey EX-L ?
They can do whatever they want, but you can negotiate not to.
Biggest problem I have Dan is communicating with them via email they all want me to come down in person for pricing!
How did you get them to email you the details????
Just insist on email only. If they want the sale they’ll play ball.
carvana stock is plummeting as there are major rumors carvana is going to bankruptcy .Maybe paying too much for vehicles like in this case has something to do with it
what was the dealership as i am in the market for a car and would like to use a hassle free dealership with good prices
@dan Which dealer did you get the car from?
Thank you Dan for writing this up. I wouldnt have thought to ask for lower than MSRP, but because of your post I emailed several dealers and found one that waived the destination charge. I also declined their hondacare offer and plan to buy from Hyannis. Thank you!
My pleasure, well done!
Hi Dan,
Just bought a hybrid Honda, didn’t managed to get the destination charge waived but managed to get $500 below MSRP. They tried to sell me the Hondacare but I wanted to check back with you more about HondaCare so I can decide if it is something I should do.
And do you have a contact at Hyannis that I can reach out to for quote? Appreciate your advice.
Thank you kindly!
Just click the link in the post.
Which dealership did you buy from?
Dan, Thanks for this post! You motivated me to stop with the leasing and finance a car. I began with TrueCar like you but ended up going through Rodo and getting a quote for Honda EX-L at MSRP with 3.9% interest rate so ran with that. Now, I’m looking into the HondaCare plan. Which plan code did you take? They’re quoting me 750 for the 7 year 80k mile plan with $100 deductible and $860 for the plan without deductible. Which one is worthwhile to take?
Good for you!
No deductible. No brainer. 1 claim over 7 years and you’ve already broken even.
Hi I was shopping for a Honda Odyssey EXL and prices were crazy, I got a quote from a dealer then took that quote and sent it to another dealer to see if he would beet it by $500 he agreed I then did it again and again to 7 dealers until I got it down to 43,900 out the door, 3,500 less then originally quoted all it took was 3 days of back and forth E-Mailing